welcome to another episode of the Pack Leader Mentality
podcast apparently I have found my podcast voice today
your opening show voice my opening show voice
I don't know she's hosting today
Antonio asked that I start the show
so here we are sorry if I threw you off
I don't know what why are you talking while I'm talking
I'm fighting the it's a struggle
for the hierarchy of the host of the show
you're trying to dominate me and I'll appreciate it
okay it's ridiculous
I think you need some Prozac
I see what you did there I like it
yeah I like that
so that's it
that's a pretty much the topic of the show today
drugging drugging dogs
and yeah let's just call it what it is
drugging dogs with what is it Prozac
trizodone fluoxetine or whatever
yeah it's happening more and more
it's kind of like an epidemic if you ask me
and no shame to anyone that gives their dog
any psychotropics although
I'm sure that some people are being lazy
and looking for a quick fix
although I've met a couple of dogs in my career
that I would say
could definitely benefit from those drugs
and have benefited um
and I'm not anti medication right
but it's a rising issue
and I think it definitely needs to be addressed
drugs are being pushed as a first response
it's happening so much
that there's actually a term called puppy prozac
get out yeah
puppy prozac puppy prozac that is so sad
that is so sad I did not know that damn um
well I do know this though
so check this out in 2017
there was a market research firm named Package Facts
and they found that 8% of dog owners
and 6% of cat owners
use pet medication to treat anxiety
or for calming purposes
and then
according to the American Pet Products Association
in 2021 for their annual report
and this is in 2021 so can you imagine what it is in 24
yeah today
um so 70% of US households or approximately 90.5
90.5 million homes have a pet
which suggests that the number of pets on anxiety meds
is in the millions
I believe it that's insane to me
and you know here's my question
like how many of those pets actually need medication
like they're redlined with their anxiety so bad
that they actually need that medication
um and you know
their issues weren't
and could not be solved with balance training
or how many are those you know
pads on it
because people are resorting to quick fixes for
you know
basic obedience or basic things that could be solved
right like
how many people are resorting to that as a quick fix
like you said or were being pushed by
force free or vets force retainers are vets
to put them on that medication
because they did truly don't know how to handle it yeah
and I mean I've had several clients tell me that
when they went to their vet
all they did was mention you know
excessive barking hyperactivity
nervousness or even what they thought was anxiety
and almost immediately
the vet was suggesting Prozac or something of the sort
and I think it's just like I said
it's being pushed a lot and it's
I just feel like
it's definitely a topic that needs to be mentioned
and spoken on
is this like really the direction that we're heading
you know in regards to dog behavior solutions and
I you know
and there's nothing against vets
I we obviously utilize our vets for health reasons
right like they're amazing at what they do
but then the question is is since
you know they're not really
maybe verse in dog training and behavior
are they really equipped to make that decision
and just put them on anxiety medications that quickly
without really pushing the owners to seek help
maybe prove that they've you know
that they looked for help
and could not obtain the solution
and this is like the last resort
I feel like this industry maybe is not being really
like filtered
or I would say even just at the minimum suggesting uh
like more physical mental stimulation
more exercise yeah
and and I'm sure there are vets that do right
but like how many don't that we're here now yeah
recently you know
I had a client who had
3 force free trainers come out and try to help them
um and before reaching out to me
and they were dealing with dog to dog aggression
Layla was with me on this session
and one dog who I call the bully
was staring down and being a bully to the other dog
who really didn't want any issues
and all three trainers
who are self proclaimed force free trainers
um vilified prong collars
e collars and any other sort of correction
um training method
and some of their solutions were
one of them recommended
throwing water balloons at the dog
who was being aggressive which
which funny enough
is actually a form of punishment and not
would not be considered a force free method
approved method which yeah
so and then the other two
the other two
both recommended Prozac or some sort of a psychotropic
and one of them out of those two
was pushing super hard for rehoming the dog
even like and the owners were like
that's not an option and they kept pushing it
yeah yeah
and you know just to be clear
cause I know
I'm probably gonna get a lot of comments about this
I'm aware that trainers so for
or trainers can't uh
prescribe any medication or drug for dogs
they can suggest to the client that
they talk to their vet about it
behaviorist or um
veterinary behaviors can prescribe and obviously
vets can too but
sorry to cut you off but these force free trainers sue
it's not just like hey
we suggest it's a hard recommendation
yeah for sure
to the point where it's like
well if you don't do it
then I can't touch your dog
I can't train your dog so
you know if you're seeking help
and that is a hard recommendation
how many people are like okay cool
yeah I guess I'll do it
you're a professional yeah
and I would say it seems like most vets would agree
if you went to them and said my
you know my trainer recommended I put my dog on Prozac
vets are gonna like yeah easy
like all I gotta do is sign off
good to go just sent out 3 other people with prozac
prescriptions for their dogs too
so again it's just a common thing
like this vicious cycle yeah
yeah and here's my problem with it right
so trainers and veterinary behaviors alike will argue
and yell and scream to the blue
in the face about how training tools
like prong collars and e collars are abusive
or that dogs don't learn from them
all this type of stuff
while also scoffing at and downplaying
you know terms like leadership
holding the dog accountable
creating boundaries routines right
all this stuff like that to them
it's nonsense it's not needed right
it's all fallacy and they scoff at all that
yet these are the
same
trainers and behaviors that literally are recommending
drugging dogs or rehoming the dog
or even euthanizing aka killing the dog as a solution
right do you see the problem here
this is an issue am I
am I not am I wrong for this
for thinking this right
I I get so angry every time I
from our clients you know
and this is just from our clients
from personal experience let alone what's out there
um
of people
literally being recommended to give their dogs away
like what yeah
what what
even seeing the dog
that this is like phone consultations
zoom consultations it's yeah
it's like I said I think it's an epidemic and it's
I think it's it's incompetence to be honest
I think it's incompetence
you don't know what you're doing
you're brainwashed into it
and now dogs are suffering in your hands
like what kind of brainwashing cold do these guys join
uh that teaches to skip over the use of corrections
or the effective use of punishers
and jump right into mind altering drugs
uh that I guess from their perspective
solve the behavior problem or solve the dog's problems
or the person's problems for that matter
and these are the same people who claim that trainers
like myself
I consider myself a rewards based balance trainer
but I also use prong collars
and they look at people like me
and think that I'm using and other trainers alike
are using tools like prong collars
and e collars as a quick fix
and we're lazy just looking for a quick fix
throwing treats consistently at the dog
well I would say drugging them itself
or getting rid of the dog or that
I mean that's not easy or euthanizing the dog yeah
there's a lot of work that goes into
using a prong collar or any collar
you can't just slap one on a dog and there's no word
and all your problems solved yeah
I mean obviously they're speaking from ignorance
and I'm just touching on some points here
you know
um because I just wanna point out
like the hypocrisy in that
in calling anyone who uses an e collar
like a lazy trainer um
but yet just prescribing the dog medication
to solve the problems
or to make the dog more easy to handle
you know like that yeah
it's yeah again
it's just it's
it's ridiculous to to us
and I feel like those who are logical in their
in their thoughts
you know not to mention that
these types of trainers and behaviors
won't even touch the dog most of the time they
they'll not even touch the leash
let alone the dog
and they'll drug them just to
just to work with them
and these are the same trainers who say that
they don't need to see a behavior
in order to solve your problems
and they're actually I've seen videos where they
say things like a red flag is a trainer who says
they need to look at the behavior right
which I would I I mean
if you tell me you have a problem with your dog
you know you can describe it as best as you can
but it isn't until I see it
that
I can really see the true nature of what's happening
there's so much involved yeah
you like he can't tell you how many times yeah
and exactly and background in history
and just like observation that's needed
you know um
that you can't get through speaking to somebody
and a lot of times
people don't know what they're looking at
so their description of it isn't necessarily correct
so the observation yeah
it's cute by maybe what they've heard
or somebody else has said to them or
I mean the one thing I've
I've obviously Learned a lot of things
but one thing that stands out is
you've always said to me
no dog is the same like every single dog
even though like on paper
they might have the same characteristics or issues
problems yeah
problems right
like on paper it could be like that
but when it comes to like
you observing them
and seeing the context and the situation
and the dog
the approach is gonna be completely different
another dog who presented just like them exactly yeah
for sure for sure
and so you know
observing them is very important and you know
but I say like these guys
they don't need to see the behavior
that's what they say
they don't need to see the behavior
and I say that's because they only have five options
when it comes to training
and if if anyone's worked with a force retrainer
tell me if if I'm if I'm wrong here
um No.1
I called the Force Free and Behaviorist
five step training program
this is it
step 1 throw treats at the dog in the problem
if that doesn't work step 2 avoid the problem
move away from the problem
step 3 if that doesn't work
drug the dog
uh and if that doesn't work
step 4 get rid of the dog
rehome the dog and step 5
if that doesn't work euthanize the dog
that's usually the progression
of how those training tactics go
with a lot of those trainers
I know there's gonna be people that we know watch this
listen to this are gonna be
you know fired up
and I also understand that
not a lot of people subscribe to that um
method right
and they're great I'll say force free trainers
I think that there can be some good trainers
who know their limits
and know what they don't wanna do
when it comes to corrections
and will
refer their clients to the appropriate individual
who can um
but yeah I would say for the most part
my experience with a lot of these people
especially because they make themselves known so much
you know in the comments and
or just in their strong push and negativity
and vilifying
like certain training tools and approaches
so that way when I get to the client
and they start telling me all the things that
that other trainer said when I recommend these tools
and I'm like
let me just show you how we're gonna use them
and then they're like ah okay
it's not that bad at all like
it's not that bad at all it's not bad at all
you know what I mean so yeah
this is the kind of stuff that uh
I I experience out there in real life
you know so this isn't just me making things up
I I hear a lot of this from clients
who worked with these trainers
and behaviorists
and people call themselves trainers and behaviorists
my my question is to why
why do these trainers and behaviorist view
using a prong collar as a worse option
than drugging the dog or killing the dog
I don't get it out that's my question
I mean the only thing that would make
that make sense to me is that
they're not accepting that
their serious flaws in their ideology
an approach exactly
and that is just incompetence and ego
standing in the way of accepting that
they're incompetent in handling a situation
or dog that has behavioral issues
are outside of their realm
yeah and or that they're intimidated by yeah
so it's like here drug it just
you know
I know when we have these conversations in person
like I I get so heated because I love dogs
we all love dogs right
like people are listening
and to think of how many dogs were put down
how many dogs are currently on medication
that shouldn't be and again
from personal experience
like how many dogs have you reversed
you've taken off medication yeah
I wouldn't even call it medication
in the way that a lot of it is used
I think it can be used as medication right
but for the most part I think it's used as a drug
taking them off drugs and they're living enriched
fulfilled lives yeah
for sure and I think that's something that frustrates
I can see you know
frustrates you I know from conversation
and also for me because I know what
when I a lot of these times I see what the dog needs
and you know
the fact that the dog was put on a prescription just to
I would say hide or suppress their behavior when it's
it's actually an easy fix
easy in the sense of what needs to be done
but the actions that it takes
in the mindfulness to get it done
is not easy admittedly
there's work involved but that is the beauty of it
you know it's
you're not just slapping a Band Aid on it
a Band Aid that has consequence yeah
you're building a relationship
side effects yeah
and you're building relationship through
the things that
that I would teach to rid a lot of these problems
is anxious behaviors and
you know anything that would be
I presumably used or would be presumably solved
I should say with medication or a drug
but I mean from
from you know
client experiences and conversations
it's not even a Band Aid though
because most of the time
what ends up happening is it does work right
the dog is sedated you know
in a in a good balanced way for a short period of time
and then their body gets used to it
and then they go from a smaller dosage to bigger
and bigger and bigger and bigger
and it just it keeps going
yeah and escalates
yeah and it's a lifelong thing too
yeah lifelong of side effects yeah
one of the things that bothers me a lot about this
is how disrespectful it is
I think to the dogs
to deny them physical corrections and communication
um that they themselves utilize with each other
dogs bite they nip
they snap they bark at
they push they nudge
they shove each other
all in an attempt to communicate with one another
so why is it that we would deny dogs
the opportunity for that clear communication
when it comes to the way that we communicate
why
do they insist on leaving this type of communication
out of training in the learning process
especially when science tells us that it's effective
when it's used correctly well timed
meaningful and appropriate
corrections can and do stop unwanted behaviors
when it's done correctly
I covered this in Episode 2
so if you guys want to hear more about it
go ahead and check out that episode
and you can learn more
but I do want to actually read from a book
it's called How Dogs think by Stanley Corn and
and help put things in perspective again
and I actually mentioned this in Episode 2
but let me find it
here we go
alright so this is now mind you
so this guy's authored quite a few books and articles
in his um
just so you understand the reason
I'm actually mentioning this
is because his perspective is very much like
force free purely positive for training
and he does not agree with any type of
no punishment used in training
he makes it very clear he's read articles about it
but here's what's interesting about what he says
from his own book so he says
I'm not a fan of punishment
as a means of controlling a dog's behavior
not because it doesn't work
because it does if done right
but rather
because it is so difficult to make it work correctly
now I agree with him that it
that it does work if it's done correctly
um I would say that it's the
the parts that are highlighted
about punishment
the bad parts are the parts that are
when it's done incorrectly or inappropriately right
which does happen a lot I would say with with the
the quote unquote balance trainers right um
so there's that and I'll acknowledge that for sure
and I don't wanna I wanna be clear
and I wanna include that in this conversation
because you know
my position on those types of trainers too
and I can do a whole podcast about them as well
but what I don't agree with is that he says
it's so difficult to make it work correctly
meaning the use of punishment in training
and I disagree with that in fact
I feel like I specialize in that
when it comes to teaching my clients
how to utilize punishment in a way that is productive
in their relationship with their dog
and appropriate and appropriate and establishing clear
um clear boundaries and good communication
in addition to all of the positive reinforcement
that I always recommend that my clients implement
in their training
he goes on to say at the end of this chapter though um
which I I
I really like what he says here and I agree with him
he says technical knowledge of psychology
and even a university degree in behavioral sciences
does not necessarily make you a good
or even a competent dog trainer
agreed 100% and I would buy you a coffee
Stanley corn just for that statement alone
he goes on to say
those who most effectively managed to teach dogs
are often
people with a particularly sharp sense of observation
a great sense of timing and a lot of patience
I agree with you and this is I mean
this is the part of training that I tell people
all the time you have to watch your dog
you have to become a good observer right
have good timing all these things
so he goes on to say remember
a lot of dog training is simply watching
to see when the behavior you want comes along
and then trying to capture it
with a net made of rewards
if you are effective in doing so
not only will the dog learn
but he will enjoy the process of learning
to tell the truth training dogs is easy
training trainers is hard and again
I agree I think dog training dogs is very easy
and I tell my clients that all the time
in the part that I love about my job
is training the people and seeing the changes in them
and in their dogs like I live for this kind of stuff
so coaching people training people is what I live for
I love it
and um and so when it when he says that you know
teaching basically you know
using corrections correctly is difficult
I disagree with that and I think difficult
so we're gonna avoid it yeah
exactly right exactly
we're it's difficult
so we're not gonna touch that you know
and drug
instead of educating people on how to properly do it
and emphasis is put on never using punishment
and this is a problem for me
you know what I mean so and and and again
this I just want to point out to that it's okay
it's okay to disagree with somebody
and like the majority and
but also agree on some good points
I have a lot of books like that in my library
where a lot of them are purely positive
force free training style books
and I I take a lot of information from them
I don't agree with agree with a lot of stuff they say
but I can certainly learn from it
because positive reinforcement is very important
in training it is
one of the best ways for dogs to learn what to do
but corrections
and punishment can be effective in teaching dogs
what not to do and also again
help create rules and boundaries so really
really important stuff
and just to be clear too
there are certainly situations that I would support
the use of psychotropics for example
the occasional vet visit with
the dog is gonna be way too fearful
aggressive
or reactive to be handled by the owner or the vet yeah
by all means you know get them prepared for that
I think that that's that's great
because so I would say
socializing
and desensitizing to the vet is a little bit
of a difficult task um
I like flying yeah
flying or fireworks for example
another good one thunderstorms
OCD neurological issues
or even chronic fear chronic anxiety
things like that um
if you have worked on training
and you haven't been able to resolve your issues
through training and behavior modification
then for sure I'm not against it
it's just that there's a push
that it's just being thrown at dogs so easily
that this is this is the real quick fix that
I think needs to be avoided
uh we don't
you know just to have these zombie dogs walking around
and a lot of times too
what I hear from clients is that they tried it
and there wasn't that much of a difference
in their dog there were still reactivity
it's like yeah
they were you know
they just noticed like little changes here and there
but it wasn't necessarily enough
for them to either justify
or feel completely comfortable with giving their dog
this drug for the rest of their life
you know
and that's another important thing to keep in mind
like does it even work if you're using it for your dog
oh you're constantly upping the dosage
yeah exactly
but in my
I would say that my biggest issue with this is the
the intentional normalization of drugging dogs
while simultaneously vilifying
you know aversive training tools uh
words and concepts like leadership
and holding dogs accountable
and clear communication with rules
and boundaries and things like that
um why why are we normalizing giving dogs uh
mind and personality altering drugs
instead of pushing routine
physical and mental stimulation
clear communication leadership
teaching people how to be leaders
establishing rules and boundaries
and giving meaningful consequences to dogs
when they need them
well
what's crazy too is that that is called suppression
hmm oh
when you give a dog correction yeah yeah
that's a new word that they're suppression yeah
suppress everything suppression but drugging the dog
yeah that's not suppression
that's not suppression no
it's not like make it make sense
it does not make sense I mean
I actually wanna I
I wanna have a whole episode about suppression and
you know
and in that topic alone yeah
because it is yeah it is a very there
there is truth to suppressing dogs
using strong forms of punishment
word that that definitely is a thing right however
it's but it's like a
it's the thing is that it's
the word suppression is just being thrown around
for every every time a dog is
a correction is just like
all the dogs being suppressed
and it's a bad thing so yeah
it's it's a total like mind screwy thing
we'll definitely have to address it yeah
we will for sure
we're gonna we're gonna address that in an episode
but yeah but going back to the question
like why are we normalizing giving drugs to dogs
and it's happening more and more
um and I think that
the answer to that can be found by looking at
where the money goes so
who financially benefits from giving out
all these prescriptions um
you know being made and filled
that would be my question
cause
the push for these methods are coming from the top
all these so called trainers
and behaviors are doing exactly what they are trained
and taught to do
which is vilify effective training tools
or aversive training tools
and methods of stopping unwanted behavior
and turn training
and behavior problems into a medical problem
and push pharmaceuticals
in order to resolve those issues
from a feel good approach
a feel good perspective we never have to hurt your dog
just give him some medication punishments bad
you know what I mean
like that's they're learning this stuff
this is what they're coming out of their schools
preaching and teaching you know what I mean
and where does that
where's that information coming from
so who who would actually benefit from banning
aversive training tools and thus
leaving the pharmaceutical solutions
as the leading option for training
and behavior modification
well I mean who benefits from that
I'll let you guys yeah
I'll let you guys answer that question
and just to keep in mind too
that the pet industry is like a multi
billion dollar industry and the pet training industry
yeah so yeah
think about that just follow the money
and if you think that dogs
or their owners would benefit
are the ones that are gonna be benefiting from this
push of
a ban of aversive tools
and a push for pharmaceutical solutions
I I would disagree with that well
in in human experience you know
when you take medication
that medication has side effects
those side effects lead to other issues
those issues lead to other medications yeah
and it's this cycle cycle
it's a business model and it use your imagination
you know of it's a business what's happening here
but I digress
that's it for us today we love to hear your feedback
so if you guys want to leave a comment
share this with friends go for it
we love that and don't forget
if you have a training and behavior question
that we love to answer the question on the show
and work in the email us at info at leisurepack lv
com boom and don't forget to put podcast
question in the subject yeah
and and also
if you're struggling with any behavioral issues
with your dog I have a pack leadership course
and you can click the link in the description
to learn more if it's right for you
and thank you guys so much for watching
we'll catch you guys for the next one
see you next time peace
and for those of you that aren't force free trainers
I mean I agree
