what's up beautiful people
welcome back to another episode of
the Pack Leader Mentality podcast
thank you guys for your patience
we've been kind of Mia for a couple of weeks
but we recently went to New York to visit family
I welcomed my new baby nephew to the world and yeah
and so we just you know
we had some family time
I did plan on
I was intending on trying to record the podcast
I brought some Mike's with us
but we never ended up getting around to it
but I mean honestly
like you know
there were certain moments where I wanted to and then
I just looked around at my family and I was like
all right well
I'm just gonna
you know leave them here for an hour
yeah exactly
and so yeah
I think I made the right decision
I got to take those moments in
uh when we can
so but anyway
without further ado
we're back and today I wanna talk
about what rules and boundaries are and why
they're necessary
um I think that
well at least in my experience
I can say that
you know I've created posts on social media
and I'll have some random trainer
or wannabe trainer in my comments saying things like
oh dogs don't need rules and boundaries uh
or just some
some weird comment implying that
and it just
it kind of cracks me up
like I think it's really funny
but I am curious
as to the reason why they think that
I don't understand that
because if you look at dogs right
if you have puppies with their mom
the mother will set boundaries for her puppies
so I don't understand how we go from that
which is happening naturally in nature
in the way that they communicate with one another
and then some people don't agree with it
and actually decide to pull that out of the equation
yeah that to me
that doesn't make sense
I mean I agree with you
but I wanna talk about that today
um I also wanna get into exactly what
are rules and boundaries right
so we need to clarify
uh the definition of that and how
so that we're all on the same page
uh I also wanna talk about why some trainers
don't recommend them
and why some trainers can be too strict
in my opinion
so let's jump into
what I would define as rules and boundaries um
I would say that rules tell us what dogs can and can do
and they can be applied
in certain circumstances
and in certain conditions
and also encompass boundaries right
so within rules are
the boundaries
so they're separate
but I would consider rules as like the umbrella term
for a boundary
I would say that could be like
a definitive area
or where a dog is like
not allowed beyond a certain threshold
for example so like
and then again
going into using rules and boundaries together
I would say
a rule could be that a dog isn't allowed on a furniture
under any circumstances
or we can say
that the dog is allowed
on the furniture
but only in a certain location
so like on the little
blanket that you have on the couch
for example
so that would be the boundary
so the rule is
the dog can come up on the couch with permission
that's the rule
only with permission
and within that rule
the boundary is the dog can
only be on the couch
on the little blanket
that's it so just gonna give
you guys some perspective on how those two
kind of coincide with each other
so another example of a boundary and a rule together
I'll give you an example using play
so we can say that no rough play is
allowed between our dogs
and the boundary is that at a certain point
when that play starts
to get a little too rough
that's where we cut off play right
or redirect the dogs and allow them to
come back together and play
until they reach that threshold
of intensity
and then we separate them and then start over
so to give you another example of rules
and boundaries together as one
and so now that we've got rules and boundaries
out of the way
let's talk a little bit about the difference
and potential reasons why some trainers disagree
on the use and application of rules and boundaries
in my experience
a lot of force free
or purely positive trainers speak negatively whenever
I've made videos about rules and boundaries
as I said before
and there's always this like scoffing
and implication that dogs
can make progress with behavioral issues
and obedience problems
without the use of rules and boundaries
personally I can't think of
any situation that this would make any sense at all
you know but I guess this is where I would say
an open invitation
to any force free trainer out there
if you'd like to elaborate on that
or explain to me how this is the case
I would really like to understand why
or how that's possible
because you know
I think then any
natural setting
with any social group of beings or animals
there's always gonna be some degree
of rules and boundaries
in order for everyone to coexist together right
and peacefully in a balanced
harmonious way however
whatever fancy words you wanna throw out there right
but just peacefully
and everybody getting along
I mean dogs again
even as adults
the boundaries are
our dogs are setting boundaries with Charlie the puppy
where when she's a little too much in their face
they make it known you know
whether that is
you know raising their lip a little bit
or me just kind of barking at her or a little growl
yeah that that's
that's a boundary absolutely
so even in our lives
and in my opinion
in order to have dogs live with us in the most
peaceful way
we need to introduce to them rules and boundaries that
are appropriate for them living with us
and I think that across the board you know
that can vary between household
and I see that a lot
some people
have certain rules and boundaries with their dogs
and others don't you know
I think that same with me as a professional trainer
I'm sure if you go to another trainer's house
you might see that they live a little bit differently
or a lot differently than I do
for example
and that's perfectly normal
the whole point here is
to be able to apply rules and boundaries in a way that
is beneficial to your relationship and is like
mutually beneficial to both you and the dog
for example
a little bit more you
than the dog
to be honest
but you know
I think it's all circumstantial
so let me ask you this
I'm just I'm actually curious for my own sake um
in your experience
in the homes that you go into where you know
there's a home maybe that has moderate boundaries or
let's stick with moderate because I think intense
can go into a whole different overall game
but moderate
healthy boundaries to a home that has zero boundaries
in your experience
do you feel like
the dogs that have zero boundaries from their owners
are the ones that are like really crazy
have all these type of issues
or has that not really played a role in their no
it's definitely
is definitely
definitely plays a role
like it's usually with 100% accuracy
I can I can
hear problems that a person is dealing with their dog
and I can say exactly what the dog is
allowed to get away with on a fairly regular basis
because it's
they're all problems that
produce the same sort of symptoms and issues you know
kind of children
yeah exactly
if you're not asking kids to be polite and you know
sort of this learn to earn relationship like yes
you can hang out with your friends
but first you need to
you know do your homework or yes
you can play your game
but first you need to clean your room
without that
it's just a free for all for the kids
and it almost creates this entitlement and dogs
in my experience
you get the same results with dogs
like 10 out of 10 times it's
it's pretty common
all I will let me rephrase
I'll say nine out of 10 times
because I think there are
there are always exceptions
and I've certainly met dogs that
you know people will say
I didn't do anything with this dog
I didn't have to train him
I never did anything
they were just great
and those dogs do exist
but the reality is
that they're very few and far between
and those dogs actually
create more problems for people in the future
because people check at their dog
and it's not
it's not the same at all
it's a complete nightmare
because they are just a different dog
so that's really important to understand
you know but I mean
with regard to trainers
there's a whole other
aspect to this
like the other side of the spectrum
as I like to say
and you know
their trainers that I would say
are a bit overkill with rules and boundaries
and their perspective on the relationship
differs greatly
they think that dog shouldn't make a move without
their permission
and it's very very
everything they do is very regulated and very strict
it almost seems like
I would say
people would call
the dogs that live that way
like robot dogs
I would say that the dogs are withdrawn and kind of
cold and they're
doing things out of programming
and not really allowed to think for themselves
make decisions on their own you know
and it's just yeah
it's I'm not a fan of that you know
to be honest um
and I again
with everything when it comes to dogs
I find myself really in the middle
or trying to be in the middle as much as possible
and just treating every dog and situation
as a unique and individual
circumstance that needs to be addressed
apart from everything else you know
so what is the best approach
and solution when it comes to applying boundaries
uh I would say this
this is what I tell all my clients uh
how strict you are with your dog
should be in direct correlation with how
out of control they are and
where where you currently are in your relationship
with them and like how well they listen to you
for example
so if I go into someone's home
and their dog is just jumping all over the couch
jumping all over furniture uh
zero rules and boundaries
they're barking to get attention
they're very pushy uh
they don't listen to the owner at all
then my recommendation with regard to rules
and boundaries and being strict
it's gonna be
a complete one
80 from the way that they're currently living
so from an outsider
it's going to be very
very strict
or even for that person
some of the things that
I'll tell them that they need to stop doing
and start implementing is gonna seem like wow
that's that's a lot
you know yeah
like ignore your dog
you know until certain times um
don't let them on the furniture
if they get up on the couch
tell them off
and make sure they get off
it's gonna feel very very uh
different and foreign to them
and it's gonna feel
they might even feel like they're being mean to their
dog but that again
is in direct correlation to
how out of control their dog is
if I go into someone's house and their dog listens well
they're they're not
jumping all over everything
and they just need to find
tune a couple of
you know issues
let's say like
the dog doesn't come when called
or you know
maybe the dog jumps a little bit
and they wanna clean that up
but generally speaking
the dog listens well
they're not
out of control
they're not running them up
in the house
then my suggestion to them is not gonna be
the same as
walking into that other person's house whose dog
was just completely
out of control
and just no
respect for space
and things like that
so very very different
and that's that's what's really important
for everybody to understand
that when you apply
rules and boundaries
usually the way that I like to explain is we're
trying to create habits
a certain foundation
or like a lifestyle
for the dog to
learn to adhere to
this is the way we do things in this house right
and when your
dog is completely
out of control
the best thing
for you to do
is to attack
attack it from like
all these different areas
so for example
I would tell people to
make the dog
sit at the door before you
let them out to
the bathroom
make them sit
and wait before
you release them to
eat their dinner
make them sit
and wait to
get affection
only give them affection
if they're on their bed
um you know
don't let them on the couch
don't sleep with them
Kennel train them
teach them place
don't let people greet them
until they've been calm right
and and again
it just seems like
oh my gosh my
my lifestyle is
completely changing and yeah
temporarily
and that's sometimes
it's like harder
for the owner than
oh for sure
it's 9 like
99% of the time
it's harder
for the owner
because the
dog eventually
even though there might be some resistance at first
and they may
not be necessarily happy
they conform a lot faster
than people do because
they need that guide
guidance and directions
yeah yeah so
again these
these rules
and boundaries
don't have to last
the entire lifetime of the dog
in certain situations
they do though
for example
I'll use Logan our dog
he is a resource guarder
and we've worked on
those issues
but he's to me
resource guarding is like a part of
a part of the
personality
and it can be like a plague
and where it leeches
out into other areas
and anyone who's worked with dogs
and resource guarding knows this
but with Logan
for example
I remember one time he was
he jumped on the bed in the spare bedroom
and I have a picture of it
cause right on the bed we had a pillow
it says be kind to animals or I'll kill you
and he was just laying there so peacefully and it was
it was kind of a cute moment right
but it was my mistake to let him do that
I saw him on the bed
I didn't see him get on the bed
I saw him on the bed
and he saw me see him and I
and I did nothing about it
and I was just like
I took a picture and I was like
oh look how cute it is
I think I even posted it
for the next two weeks
this mother was on the bed
and I was like
bro get off
what are you doing
and I was annoyed
but at the same time
you know I would say like 30% at him
but also 70% at me because I let it happen
but this is an example
and he wasn't resource guarding the bed
just to be clear
but my point is
is that he's a
dog that will never have those privileges
because you give him like
a centimeter
and he takes a mile
yeah it's just not for him
and this is another thing that I
like for my clients to understand
be prepared for that
it really just depends on your dog
if they conform well
if they do well
if these rules and boundaries start to become
um I would say
second nature for them
then you can ease up a little bit you know
and you can just kind of reapply them as needed to
you know get yourself back on track
Brooklyn is a good example
our Shepherd
you know she's
she's just really good so
but you really
like laid in those in an
obviously like
in a balanced way
like from the moment she came into our home as a puppy
there was rules and boundaries for her
yes yep and so
you really did build a great foundation for her
because you started from
like I said
yeah from the get go
from the get go
and you were consistent with it
yeah and so
now it's like
there are no really rules and boundaries to set for her
because she she knows
and she navigates within those boundaries on her own
she might need a reminder sometimes
when you're like
Brooklyn Place
well when I tell her
Brooklyn Place
not you me for sure
but you know
then just following through with that she's like
alright fine
I'll do it but I
I think sorry
I'm just totally taking over this conversation but um
she's such a great example that if you just
put in the work and build that strong foundation
you're most of the time
like obviously
it's not a guarantee
but you're set
you might have to remind your dog here and there
but you're good yeah
another good example that just came to mind
as you were saying that is when I have
clients with dogs who are very
codependent of them and follow them everywhere
one of the rules that I
say to them to implement is
don't let your dog follow you around
and to clarify
to them and to you guys
you know that's
specifically to address the codependency
it's not bad for your dog to follow you around
whenever I come into the office
Logan comes in this office every time
he follows me all the time into the office
like every move you make
your dog is following yeah
and if your dog has a
propensity to be
codependent
or that's who they are
they've been codependent
for whatever reason
lack of socialization
you work from home
they're always around you
etcetera you know
you'd want to start implementing the rule of
you can't follow me around the house
right and maybe
use a place bed as a boundary or
doorways and thresholds around the house as a boundary
if you go to another room
your dog is not allowed to exit
the one room that they're in but again
this doesn't necessarily mean that
you have to do that forever
I would say
once you start to see that your dog becomes
less anxious
more comfortable
less dependent on you
and your presence then yo
it's okay for them to
follow you around here and there
because they're doing well
and if you notice that
because your dog starts to follow you around
these behaviors that you were dealing with in the past
start to resurface
then I would say
you might wanna consider the possibility that
you should not let this particular dog
follow you around
under normal circumstances
you know yeah
she wants okay
there's some dog like for example Logan that
it is what it is you just
you have to be consistent exactly with those boundaries
and there's other dogs
like Brooklyn and I'm sure many others
that once you set those in place
they get it and they're good
yeah and again
pretty much all this stuff with my own dogs
I don't use
really any of it anymore you know
if my dogs wanna come up to me
uh to get affection
I give them affection
but again it's
it's because of
the ability that I have to communicate with them
in any moment
let's say if I'm petting Brooklyn
and Logan comes up because he wants affection
which normally he would
I don't have a problem with that
I wouldn't allow or I wouldn't recommend that
for a client who has a dog who is pushy
and always demanding attention
I would say to them
when that dog comes up to you
when you're petting another dog
make them go away every time until
they give up on that idea
and then potentially in the future
once in a while
you can have them come in and then it's okay but again
if we're talking about eliminating this pushy behavior
we cannot allow it and again
another example of how
there's compromise right
so it can be circumstantial that you apply
rules and boundaries
and then also when the dog is doing well
you can potentially give them these privileges back
because they're well behaved all around
and you know
using Brooklyn and Logan again
as an example
Logan is allowed to come up at any time though
if Logan comes up to me
while I'm petting Brooklyn or vice versa
and I say Logan
go away or go place or both and go away
no go place
they'll stop and they'll turn around and go away
and occasionally
I'll even implement that just to make sure that
I still have that communication with them
and if I didn't
then for maybe the next week or two
I'm going to send them away
just to make sure that they understand that hey
listen this is
this is still um
that I'm still the one
who is determining
whether or not you get attention
you know and
it's just a matter of
keeping that line of communication open
so that we can use it when needed
another example of that
and when our house is
like letting the dogs out to go to the bathroom again
I used to have them do that frequently
all the time
open the door sit
open the door
free go ahead
and I hardly ever do that
however once in a while
I'll tell them sit
and I'll open the door
and they kind of look at me like
yeah can I go
and I tell him free
it's also helped
because now we don't have dogs that bum rush
exactly like
they're not fighting for the entry way or doorway
and they're not bum rushing and like
hitting the glass or common
cool about it
yes and again
so we're just creating that foundation of
calmness and some boundaries
and then they become automatic so
it's not like I have to make them sit every single time
they're already
calmer and more relaxed when they exit the door
or enter a door
for example I think
they're sick of this misconception
I guess you can say
because sometimes
you know in talking to people
and seeing them work with their dogs
often people I think
think it's a black and white type of thing
yeah you know
and there's a lot of gray area and it's
there's a lot of fluidity that goes with it
just roll with it
you know test your dog
see how they're doing
like you said
you know it's not like
like this forever or like that forever
it's it seems like it's always this like balancing act
the fluid act of like going back and forth
seeing where your dog is at
meeting them there or reminding them or not
like it's not yeah
some you know
and sometimes soon like a
if somebody's been training their dog for a while
and they got it
and then the one time they make a mistake
it's just like big deal
it's like it's
it's okay for them yeah
to make a mistake
it happens we make mistakes so
hundred percent
well it's funny
cause I actually had a client
recently that I was working with
and they mentioned to me that they noticed
that when their dog came up to me
and like leaned into me
that I would reach down and pet him a little bit
and they said
I thought that that was not a good thing
the trainers that we worked with before said that
we always had to make him sit in order to get affection
and I said listen
I'm not saying that they were wrong
because I don't know where exactly you were
in your training
in a relationship with a dog
but from what I can tell
your obedience or his obedience with you
him listening to you
he's very well behaved
you have a good relationship with with him
he's responsive to you
so it's okay if he comes up to you and he leans into
you for you to pet him and love on him
and this is an example for me
where I think it's a little overkill
with some trainers where it's
like you said
it's very black and white
and it's always this and never that
and it to me
that's kind of extreme
and it can really turn people off
and then on the other end of that
you've got you know
all your dog doesn't need rules and boundaries
and that honestly
is a really easy way out for people
like it's very easy to just go yeah
whatever man
they're fine
but then you have an absolute nightmare of a dog
three months later
six months later
two years later
where you're just like okay
I don't know what to do
I'm a complete
I'm at a complete loss
and then somebody like me comes in
and then it's like
everything has to change
and it seems like it's a bit much
but it's not
just because you're really so far behind the ball
you know yeah
you're completely on the other side of the spectrum
yeah um let me ask you this
so so if is
is there ever a time where it's too late
for a dog that has
zero boundaries
or for someone who hasn't
really implemented them
can you start at any time um
is there like an age range of like dogs where it's like
okay well you know yeah
no I would say
not for me no
for me no you know
there's never too late and there's no
like age maximum where I would say okay
the dog's too old
with exception
I'll take that back
I would say the only point to that would say
I would say
would be excuse me
the only situation where I would say yes
the dog is too old is if they're
you know like
on their laws
yeah exactly
like on their last leg
like alright
just let the dog be you know
let him live out his last couple of months in peace
yeah no sense in
being strict for no reason
like let the dog live a good life
um you know
or let yeah
let let him have a like
peaceful life
there's no sense in
trying to implement some new stuff for
the remaining few weeks of his life
but that would be the only exception
uh generally
I would say that there's no
there's no such thing as
a dog that's too old
or it being too late for you to start to implement
rules and boundaries at all
I would just add to that
and I'm probably beating you to it
but being consistent
so that especially when you're just starting out
and you are showing your dog
what's accepted
what's not anymore is being consistent with that
because that's very confusing for them
if they're always allowed to jump on the counter
now you're not allowing them
but occasionally they do it in like
oh that's cute
yeah I think you meant couch
on the counter oh
you said counter
I said counter
you said oh
you meant couch yeah
is there some dogs that like jump on the counter
and people think it's cute like
oh okay yeah
that's true
but they don't want it
because there's times where they do it
and there's a nice piece of steak that for sure
they're taking off the counter well
the other thing counter
couch whatever
I was just making sure
um but yeah
that's in my mind
I'm like wow
people allow that
but I guess
yeah people
people have
or at least I've seen dogs jump on the counter
and I'm looking at them and they're just kind of like
yeah and I'm like okay
but I would say to keep in mind that
when you start implementing rules and boundaries
you might have a dog that offers a lot of resistance
and that's normal
and you know
I look at it like having a kid
or being a kid
who was allowed to get away with a ton of stuff
and then all of a sudden mom and dad decide
give me your phone we're yeah
we're not gonna tolerate this anymore
things are gonna change in the kid naturally
I know I would
I'd be like
I hate life I hate you
I hate everything
this sucks yeah
I'm depressed
I don't want any of this stuff
I want new parents
and it's fine
you know we will get over it as humans
and the dogs will get over it as well
and the other thing to keep in mind
too is that
your dog knows you very well
and what I mean by that is
if I came into your house
and I started to work with your dog and implement
you know like rules and boundaries of going to place
and not coming off the bed until say
until I say free or sits there downstairs
some some sort of obedience
and then you take the leash
and you try to work with your dog
and they don't listen to you
the same way that they listen to me
there's a reason for that
and the reason
apart from the fact that obviously
I do this for a living
but the reason is because they know who you are
they know that they
nine times out of 10
10 times out of 10
they don't really have to listen to you
you've never really made them listen to you
you've never really enforced the rules
so there will also be resistance in that regard
that your dog's gonna look at you and go
what is get out of here
stop playing
I'm like next day
they like yeah
I know yeah
you can't be serious
we're doing this again
and I hear this all the time
people are always so amazing
you know not to share the secrets guys but
I always explain to my clients
it bodes well
for me that your dog is listening so well to me
but I'm brand new
they're meeting me for the first time
so right off the dead go
I set the tone like
that doesn't work
and this is how we're gonna do things
and then when the client tries to do that
the dog looks at them like
what are you talking about
you're not that guy
you know so it's easy
a lot of times
when a trainer comes into somebody's house
and grabs a leash and the dog does everything they want
of course there's handling and things like that
that go into account you know
we don't wanna take that away from any trainer
and even myself
you know obviously
I know what I'm doing with a leash
but yeah of course
like if you're not handling it correctly
then the dogs aren't for sure either
but I think
but there's more to that
there's a psychological component to that where the dog
is learning who I am for the first time
in seeing that this is how this guy operates
and they know the owner and they know how they operate
you know I was
I always give the example of like having a teacher
who is kind of a pushover in your class
and all the kids know it
and everybody just does what they want
and then all of a sudden
you have a substitute teacher come in
and right from the get go
they're like
they're not playing
and they're just dead serious
they're not joking around
they're not
they're not necessarily mean right
because they're giving the rewards at the right time
they're encouraging the kids
but they're also very
they demand respect with let's say
and they have that substitute for two weeks
what happens when the new teacher comes
or the regular teacher comes back
back to chaos
back to chaos
vice versa really
like I remember
you know I've had some strict teachers
but when the substitute came in
it's it's just like known thing right
the substitute yeah
and can do whatever you want
and it was just
you know yeah
kids doing whatever they want
I actually had a substitute though that was strict
more strict than I teach
never had that
I've always had for the most part
really strict teacher
so like it was vacation for all the students yeah
we had a substitute
that is usually the perception yeah
you're the nine out of 10 yeah exactly
but yeah just I hope that this clarifies for you guys
and I'm sure a lot of you listening
already understand that there are obvious
benefits to having rules and boundaries with your dogs
but I really want to
just clarify on how you should be applying them
and you know
what that looks like for you guys
because there's obviously a lot of confusion out there
there's there's the black and white trainers where
everything is always this
never that etc
then you have the willy nilly trainers that are like
it's okay let dogs be dogs
and I think we need to meet somewhere in the middle
you know certain dogs shouldn't have certain privileges
based on who they are as an individual
and the way that they perceive the world
and the relationship
and there are other dogs who we can start to compromise
like one example that I uh
I love to offer my clients when it comes to compromise
especially my clients
who love to have their dogs on the couch
I say this first of all
if we teach the dog place
please don't have your dog on the couch
let's let's bring value to the dog being on the bed
you know let
let let's make that more fun and rewarding for them
and then later on
we can start to add the privileges back to the couch
but I'll normally say like
here's the compromise
how about we only allow your dog on the couch
Monday Wednesday
Friday for like one hour
you know and that's a start to
to begin to implement some
you know privileges
back into the mix
you know but start off small
don't just give him everything back right away
and this is a
way that you can implement that with anything
when it comes to some rules and boundaries
start to start to give a little bit here and there
and if you start to see that your dog is faltering
and they're kind of turning back to their old ways
then take those privileges back again
there's nothing wrong with that
and it's okay
but you need to make that decision
for the benefit of your own relationship
and your own sanity for that
for that matter you know
cause what's the point in putting a bunch of work
only to let it all go to hell
you know shortly after but yeah
I hope this
I hope this episode helps
I was really excited about talking about this
because it's been on my mind for a while
uh as always
please please
send us your questions
uh email us
I think email is better
I wanna say
forget about Instagram
just email us
sometimes it goes
often times it goes into the hidden messages
yeah you're not actively looking for it
you'll never find it
but not just that but like
I love some of the questions that we've got recently
where people are elaborating
and that's another thing that I wanted to say
if you have a question
and you send it to us
please give me
as much information about your situation as possible
yeah uh cause I know in the past you get
we get questions like
you know how do I get my dog to stop barking
like what I mean
it's such a broad question
and there's so many possible solutions to that
so whenever you guys have a question
if you would please go into some detail
it would allow me to really just
break things down
based on all the information that you give me
and really be able to give
not just you
the person who submitted the question
but others that may be dealing with similar scenarios
uh a really
some really good insight and
how to deal with it
cause I wanna help you
you know I wanna
I don't wanna just answer
such generic questions
I wanna be able to get into detail
so the more detail you give me
the better I'll be able to reciprocate that
and give it back to you
so just a little tip for you guys
when you submit your questions but yeah
we love the questions and uh
I think that's
that's it for us today right
I think so alright
we'll see you guys for the next one peace
would be like using play out
going back to like dogs
you know like we have rules and boundaries
like I've implemented
I'm like listen
